Olympic torch through London et al

[Biggles]

so she's not replying to herself?

No - that would just be weird like

Edit: no you are right they were hers

[Squeamous]

They were mine alright. Aaaaaaal mine.

[Alien5]

lol n00b!

[Squeamous]

Well I'm not changing it now .

[Biggles]

No they were MG's comments. I just cut the wrong quote codes out .

I had decided to run with confusing Allen

[Squeamous]

Oh! Sorry!

Done.

[manicgeek]

But I thought you wanted free trade and not sanctions, because that would increase wealth and improve everyone's lives? How do you show a country you're serious unless you actually impose sanctions on them? And since that is unlikely to happen I think it's probably down to individuals to start boycotting Chinese goods. A singer at that rally I was at used the lyrics 'there is no government, there's just us...there's just us'. To a point I think he's right.

Sanctions or the threat of sanctions will have a greater effect if we allow them to become more dependent on trade first... and for that to happen the distribution of wealth within China needs time to develop.

In the last 50 years there have still been a generation that remember what it's like to be Tibetan. All it takes is for a couple of generations to be opressed to start the process of wiping out an identity.

Stalin virtually eradicated the Georgians, and they and their culture were repressed for more than 70 years... they're still Georgian today... in fact it would seem that no repressive regime has ever been able to completely wipe out a culture, even some of the Mayan culture survives to this day... and Cortez really did for them.

Like I said, they already are dependent on trade. The problem is, the rest of the world is dependent on trade with them too......at least the governments are. There are already agitators and dissenters, but they're being crushed. They already expect more but it makes no difference. You've seen what happened in Britain, the more comfortable people get the less they care about politics because there's less to gain from it. The more comfortable China gets financially the less likely it is to change.

I think you have to accept that wealth is a comparative thing, whilst people are becoming wealthy political change is forced as a direct consequence of that wealth generation and distribution. This holds true for all societies so far, that's how we have ended up with unions and workers rights... a path China has still to walk, and one that will become harder to resist for the regime as the expectations of the people are raised in line with their living conditions and relative personal wealth... by trading with them we cause that personal wealth to increase for the population, thereby increasing the distribution of that wealth and causing the expectations of the population to rise. Yeah that takes a long time... but this is the Chinese we are talking about and they like long games.

It's not going to gain its independence by us trading with China. It can either be poorer and freer or richer and more opressed as far as I can see of the situation.

Some of the people who spoke at that rally...people who had never even been on Tibetan soil but called themselves Tibetan, would go back tomorrow and rebuild the country if they could, poverty or not.

I have to disagree, I accept that my predictions are long term, and that there are many uncertainties in the way they will pan out, like the security question... but ultimately Communism cannot survive against the people... I also understand many would like a quick fix, but that's just not going to happen.

[chalice]

MG, if it wasn't for Squeams and Les (and pwning Allen), you'd be bored to fuck around here.

Ever think about joining in with the craic?

You might just enjoy yourself.

[manicgeek]

You'd be amazed at how much I actually enjoy just reading stuff here... this really is a great board